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Belt slippage?

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R53MAO View Drop Down
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    Posted: January/08/13 at 10:29am
Havent been on the forum in a while but have a question for the sages of the Minis.  I have noticed the following with my R53.  Im not sure if it is a new problem or ,honestly, if it is even a problem at all or just a normal working of the engine.  Let me set it up with a scenario.  Lets say Im in 4th gear doing about 3k RPM and I mash the throttle. The RPMs go to 5000-6500 (depending on how hard I mashed the thrttle, obviosly) and I hear the supercharger screaming, but the car accelerates very sluggishly.  Then after several second, maybe even 5 seconds, the car will start to accellerate more aggressively. So my question is this, is it normal for the RPMs to go up that high without the car accelerating at a similar rate?  Or, is something slipping, like my serpentine belt, or worse my, clutch?  Im told I am due for a new belt, since its been about 2 years and about 40,000 miles. 
Thanks for the help everyone!
2006 Astro black cooper S with matt black stripes and red mirror caps. 15%, pully alta CAI, Alta IC diverter w/ sprayer, one ball exhaust.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CORNERS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/08/13 at 10:42am
This sounds like a slipping clutch to me.

If the RPMs are going up but the car is not accelerating, you have a slipping clutch.

If the belt is slipping, it is probably going to be somewhat uneven slippage and you will feel uneven or 'jerky' acceleration of the car. You may or may not hear anything but it will feel a little 'chattery'.

If the clutch is slipping, it will be a very smooth feeling and you will hear the engine RPMs increase but the car will not accelerate as much as it should. After a while, the clutch plate's rotation will eventually start to match the rotation of the motor, reducing the difference in speed and friction required to overcome this difference. The car will then start to accelerate.
It is somewhat normal if it only happens when you are driving very aggressively. But if it happens frequently, you may need a new clutch.

I've done a clutch replacement for a PSMINI member - let me know if you want help with this.




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote R53MAO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/08/13 at 10:48am

I dont think it is happening when I take off or change gears, unless I have a sloppy gear change.  Just if im in low RPMs and higher gear and dont down shift to accelerate.  IF this turns out to be the clutch I would be very interested in having you help me do the work. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CORNERS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/08/13 at 11:02am
Sure.

Check to see if you have a full hole showing on the tensioner spring stop. If not, change the belt.

If it still slips, I suspect clutch but hard to say without driving the car.
I'm not sure why, but clutch slippage will first manifest itself in the higher gears.

What is your mileage and what is the history of the car?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote R53MAO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/08/13 at 11:06am

Mileage is 83,000.  History, unkown before 45,000 miles.  For me, no track days, save for one hot laps day at PGP.  No Autocross.  Just a daily driver with some fun mods.  Im gonna hve the belt replaced anyways, since its been 40,000 miles.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote scoopieb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/08/13 at 11:49am
Originally posted by R53MAO R53MAO wrote:

I dont think it is happening when I take off or change gears, unless I have a sloppy gear change.  Just if im in low RPMs and higher gear and dont down shift to accelerate.  IF this turns out to be the clutch I would be very interested in having you help me do the work. 

Sounds very similar to what mine was doing.  I first noticed it going up a hill in 3rd or 4th.  It progressively got worse.  I babied it for a few months(I don't drive everyday).  So, I am right now in the middle of a clutch change.  (Thanks for all the help corners!)  I just got the subframe out yesterday and will be taking out the tranny hopefully today.  You are more than welcome to come over and check it out to see what you're getting yourself into.  I live on the East Hill in Kent.  Also, if you decide to do it I have a tranny jack and engine support bar you can borrow.  It's the same ones as Corners has pictured in his LSD post. 
06 MCS RMW BVH, Street cam, RCA, coolant tank & Tune/Dinan CAI/Alta 15%V2/Dinan exhaust & ST/OS Giken GT/Carbon fiber/MOMO/BC coilover/swift
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote R53MAO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/08/13 at 12:02pm
What clutch did you replace it with? OEM or aftermarket. I will proably go with the valeo kit from Way Motors if I end up needing to replace.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote scoopieb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/08/13 at 12:19pm
Originally posted by R53MAO R53MAO wrote:

What clutch did you replace it with? OEM or aftermarket. I will proably go with the valeo kit from Way Motors if I end up needing to replace.
I got an OS Giken GT.  I thought about the valeo and even stock but decided in the end to spend the extra $$$ on the osg.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CORNERS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/08/13 at 12:24pm
The subframe is the easy part. Have fun getting that transmission out. :-)
Especially the 15mm bolt on the top, underneath the thermostat and the octopus electrical connector.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote scoopieb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/08/13 at 12:54pm
Originally posted by CORNERS CORNERS wrote:

The subframe is the easy part. Have fun getting that transmission out. :-)
Especially the 15mm bolt on the top, underneath the thermostat and the octopus electrical connector.
You're scaring me! 
06 MCS RMW BVH, Street cam, RCA, coolant tank & Tune/Dinan CAI/Alta 15%V2/Dinan exhaust & ST/OS Giken GT/Carbon fiber/MOMO/BC coilover/swift
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote R53MAO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/08/13 at 1:05pm
Sounds like this may be a project that I must leave to the paid professionals!!!  Sounds like for more tools than I own, and far more work than I have time for!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote R53MAO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/09/13 at 12:37pm
Got a quote from Rolfs Imports (a european car specialist) for a new clutch.  $2265 if the use the Valeo clutch kit.  More if they use the OEM clutch.
By the way Curt, I looked at my belt tensioner last night and most of the first hole is still showing on it.  Just a tiny sliver is hidden by the tensioner body.  I dont think my belt has streatched much.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CORNERS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/09/13 at 3:17pm
Yikes, that's expensive. 
It sounds like your belt tension is normal. 
Let me know if you want some help with the clutch (or with your belt). 
All the parts at Way Motor Works are only around $1100 even for an OEM clutch and flywheel and it only takes me about 10 hours to do the work. Less than half the parts cost for Valeo. I did a Valeo clutch kit for someone a few months back. 

OEM 
OEM Flywheel $750
OEM Clutch kit $285
Rear main seal $26
Crank position sensor o-ring $4
Coolant and gear oil, etc. $40? 

Total: $1105 parts 

Valeo: 
Valeo clutch & flywheel kit $449
Rear main seal $26
Crank position sensor o-ring $4
Coolant and gear oil, etc. $40? 

Total: $519 parts 


Edited by CORNERS - January/09/13 at 3:24pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Oranos991 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/09/13 at 3:35pm
It really sounds like something else to me...personally what I would do is go onto a hill, stop the mini completely and start off from there. One of the sure fire signs of a slipping clutch is on a hill start. If your car tries to pull and rpm goes up but the care does not move as it should, its a very interesting feeling and I have experienced it before myself. But Basically it feels like the car is taking too long to catch even though your letting the clutch out. If this is the case I would think worn clutch.
 
Another thing to think about is your driving a supercharged car...if your in 4th gear at 2 thousands rpm and smash the gas peddle down, your in a larger gear and your not anywhere near a hard accelerating rpm. Superchargers on r53 generally have peak HP around 5.5k rpm, if you look at some dyno charts of r53's on NAM or somewhere else you will notice, piss poor torque before 3.5-4k and the hp doesn't start coming on strong until 5k+. have you just started noticing this? at one point did the car really jump and accelerate fast from 2-3k rpm in 4th?
 
just my 2 centsSmile


Edited by Oranos991 - January/09/13 at 3:41pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote johnf36 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/10/13 at 1:40am
do you have a full hole on the belt tensioner?
If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Oranos991 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/10/13 at 11:14am
I also had another thought while driving home last night myself. So the throttle body and the bypass valve for the supercharger are activated and changed by throttle. If I am at 2-3k rpm in 5th gear and slam down the peddle, it will make a lot of supercharger noise. it will scream, because it is forcing a lot of air in and its sucking a lot of air in. That is what makes the noise. Although it does really make noise the RPM is still going up steadily. Is this what your experiencing? or are the RPM's actually going up a lot without the car to match? I just thought of this because the sound of a supercharger isn't only because rpms. The sound we think of as the supercharger wine has less to do with the rotation of the blades but actually the vacuum that it creates. So your experiencing a lot of supercharger whine without accelerating? That sounds normal if not at the proper RPM. you don't have the momentum built up to move that specific gear that fast. I have caught myself thinking, oh man its making a lot of noise my rpm must be high, but it really isn't. if your at 5k rpm and let off the throttle and its slowly goes down, the supercharger whine goes away, this is what I was talking about!
 
Either way just trying to help you out, maybe save you from replacing a clutch you don't need to :D
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote R53MAO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/10/13 at 4:41pm
Nope, RPM's go way up, super fast, and the cars acceleration doesnt match.  Good thought though.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Oranos991 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/10/13 at 8:11pm
I would still try the hill thing, it seems so strange it wouldn't happen from a hard acceleration 0-30 or so.. that seems the most likely place for a slip.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CORNERS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/10/13 at 9:42pm
I don't know why but I've always noticed it soonest in the higher gears when car is already at speed. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Oranos991 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/10/13 at 11:56pm
Lol my dad who was in the auto industry and worked for TRD for a long time was talking to me today. I mentioned this and how it was odd to me how it sounded. He told me they us to test clutches by putting the car into third gear revving it up with e brake pulled and letting the clutch out. if it kills itself right away its a really good clutch. if it hesitates or kind of grips kind of doesn't, it is bad :D sounds horrible for your car...but hahaha made me laugh and would work :D

and Kurt your probably right, what caught me off gaurd and made me think hmm maybe something else is the mileage. Mini's have STRONG clutches in my opinion. I have the original at 95k and it is very strong still. plus a 40k mile belt sounds scary, probably stretched if not stretched worn grip/ teeth so I would change that.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote R53MAO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/14/13 at 8:02am
Well, my wife didnt like me trusting the my car to people who have only heard my description of the issues with my car.  So, I took it to Rolfs Imports on Friday and they confirmed, as you all said already, that my clutch is slipping.  Ordered a Valeo clutch kit from Way, and will be heading up to CORNERS garage for some work here soon.  Thanks for the help again! 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CORNERS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/14/13 at 1:14pm
Sounds like reasonable due diligence. Glad they verified things. We can discuss time availability. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote johnf36 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/14/13 at 1:40pm
I am interested to here what your Wife thinks now?
If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote R53MAO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/14/13 at 5:58pm
Haha, shes always a skeptic.  Didnt say much, just, "well, Im glad we know for sure".  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote johnf36 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/14/13 at 8:11pm
LOLOLOL , 06's are really good for life , just a power steering pump and blower are really the only big things left. You might add the cooling fan to that too.
If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CORNERS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/14/13 at 8:26pm
The stock suspension is usually no good by around 80,000 miles as well... 


On my car, my CV joints are starting to make a clicking sound when turning at low speed, but that's probably my fault for adding 80HP to the engine... 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote New2R53-S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/03/17 at 9:38pm
I have posted the following on your youtube videos with hope that you reply to it, fortunately i found this forum in hope of hitting a contact point with you. 

Hi there, I have a question regarding 15% pulley upgrade, Drive belt tensioner, and stock belt. I have an 06 R53 Supercharged. i just got a clutch job with all gaskets replaced and belt tensioner. before turning the car over to the mechanic I had drove the car pretty aggressive and broke the tensioner. however (when the clutch was at cool temp) when i accelerated i never really lost power and it ran fair considering the clutch slipping after some time. Today I went to check my car out and test drove it and noticed a major decline in terms of the power, a nasty loud squeaky sound and the supercharger whine really high and loud (not normal). would that happen to be because the belt is stock and it needs a smaller or special belt.and could that have been the cause of my other tensioner going out? PLEASE PLEASE HELP!!! if you have an idea or any advice i would truly appreciate it! thanks, Joel Email me at Joeldcastillo@icloud.com reference ; Q&A R53

PLEASE help me, I have watched just about all your videos, i will pay for your time if i have too.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote New2R53-S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/03/17 at 9:39pm
2006 cooper S hardtop 6 spd mnl transmission.
aprox 131k on car.
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