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Coolant Additives |
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johnf36 
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 Topic: Coolant AdditivesPosted: July/19/09 at 7:14pm |
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Okay for those that don't know Tristan(YakiMini) and I for the Run to Omak made a choice to test coolant additives. Now we wanted to go with Alan's(GoMiniGo) recommendation of KoolIt but we where stuck with Redlines Wetter. Both Tristan and I saw drops in coolant temps during the Omak run. Now Tristan and I do not have gauges except for what Mini gave us but we both know living in this Hot area what are cars run. Normally we see the temp needle creep over the center mark on the Mini gauge. During the run this weekend our gauges stayed on the bottom side of the center mark on the Mini gauge. We both ran the heck out of the AC and had reduced heating issues with the cooling system. I would have like to see how Alan's KoolIt worked but my guess would be the same with better protection of the engine metals.
How many of you all are running Wetter or KoolIt? I will be adding it to my other car. John |
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onramp
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Posted: July/19/09 at 10:28pm |
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I use Redline's water wetter, and temps are lower. Can't find Alan's koolit but will look again. I just had the radiator fluid changed again for another thermostat housing problem...
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2006 Hyper Blue JCW
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YakiMini
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Posted: July/20/09 at 1:19am |
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here here!!!
For those on the Drive, I'm sure you all noticed the high pitch Fan noise from the bonnet? I never once had mine come on during the entire trip.... At the same time, as soon as I knew we were having to stop for any short period I turned the engine off since it was so hot out. |
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MINI-less... If God allows, I will have one again some day. :D
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johnf36
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Posted: July/20/09 at 1:56am |
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Here Pat it is on the Expansion tank thread, Alan makes a post towards the bottom of the first page.
http://www.psmini.org/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=5298 Here is the links he posted, http://www.lubegard.com/automotive/radiator_koolit.html http://www.lubegard.com/automotive/KOOLIT_comparison_poster.pdf http://www.lubegard.com/automotive/find_supplier_us.html Our Napa over here did not carry it. so I went to wetter. John |
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johnf36
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Posted: July/20/09 at 5:18am |
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So everyone know what the Redline product is Here:
http://www.redlineoil.com/products_coolant.asp I like some of the others would like to say which ever product you select will be a good choice. It is also a simple and cheap up grade for about 9 bucks that helps you Mini run cooler and protects it from corrosion. John |
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If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough.
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johnf36
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Posted: July/20/09 at 6:31am |
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Has anyone tried Purple Ice?
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If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough.
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searocko
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Posted: July/20/09 at 1:08pm |
Funny you should mention that. I recently noticed coolant on my garage floor and it dripped from the leading edge of the oil pan. Searching on NAM led me to believe my housing is leaking, although I haven't noticed any leakage in the last week. Is it an intermittent problem that progressively gets worse? Anyhow, I ordered the housing, new thermostat and gasket as it appears to be a common problem. The Bentley procedure seems to be pretty straightforward. Any tips or surprises that I may encounter? |
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Larry
 2005 JB/W MCS:RMW Tuned 215hp/187tq,cam|TSW x-brace|Cross Coilovers w/Swift Springs|OZ Alleggerita|Direzza|Scorpion Exh|etc. |
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searocko
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Posted: July/20/09 at 1:18pm |
Good thread John. I'll check out the Carquest in town for Koolit. May as well put some in when I do my t-stat housing change. |
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Larry
2005 JB/W MCS:RMW Tuned 215hp/187tq,cam|TSW x-brace|Cross Coilovers w/Swift Springs|OZ Alleggerita|Direzza|Scorpion Exh|etc. |
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CosmicTraveler
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Posted: July/20/09 at 3:05pm |
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After a brief spin through some of the referenced links, and having considerably more experience than your average Joe on topics relating to heat transfer, may I offer several observations. My goal was to quickly assess vendor/manufacturer claims on why their product lowers coolant operating temperatures.
First, on one link I found a claim that their additive reduces a coolant's surface tension, and therefore allows it to "wet" more surface area within the radiator - implying that otherwise there are dry nooks and crannies somewhere within this heat exchanger. This aspect of the advertisement was pretty tough for me to swallow - in fact it hasn't gone down yet!!!
Another claimed that their additive reduces scale build-up. Whether this product actually performs in this capacity as advertised remains for others to confirm. But, any product that reduces scale build-up on a heat exchange surface will reduce resistance to heat flow across this boundary, thus lowering the leaving temperature of the warmer fluid.
What I did not yet see was any claim that an additive increases the specific heat of the coolant - thus decreasing the difference between entering and leaving fluid temperatures for a fixed quantity of heat.
Like I said, it's not an exhaustive investigation, but simple use of idle brain power. Edited by CosmicTraveler - July/20/09 at 10:31pm |
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 Take It Easy ... Buck
'06 MCS JCW CR/CR |
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johnf36
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Posted: July/20/09 at 5:12pm |
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Bruce I bow to your knowledge on this subject, I see with what is in it how the corosion protection works. But can you explain why you run cooler withthis stuff?
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If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough.
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johnf36
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Posted: July/20/09 at 6:45pm |
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the MSDS sheet for Redline
http://www.redlineoil.com/msds/17.pdf Royal purple Purple Ice MSDS http://www.royalpurple.com/prod-pdfs/purple-ice-msds.pdf Here is their add Bruce http://www.royalpurple.com/radiator-additive.html http://www.royalpurple.com/faqs-purple-ice.html Edited by johnf36 - July/20/09 at 6:54pm |
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If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough.
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onramp
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Posted: July/20/09 at 10:11pm |
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Larry: My leak was slow at first, slowly getting faster. I would top off the expansion tank every month or so, then every month, then week. I noticed radiator fluid sludge forming on the bottom of the car. Combined with a couple of other things, this gave me an excuse to go in to the dealer.
I don't know the technical stuff like you, Bruce - all I know is that on a very warm SOVREN test and tune day with some guys who had built a Silver State competition Camaro, we had some overheating problems. Vic Edelbrock stopped by and gave us a bottle of Redline's Water Wetter, and we were good to go after that. Ran the car pretty hard, too. Can't think of a better side by side comparison than some back to back laps at the track. I don't remember the temp reduction, but it was at least 20 degrees. The car was running pure water (no coolant allowed in race cars because that stuff is SLICK! if a hose breaks on track). Maybe you can contact the Redline folk for a discussion on how it works. I'd be interested to hear... BTW - Edelbrock was the guest celebrity at the SOVREN historics this year. Pat |
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CosmicTraveler
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Posted: July/20/09 at 11:16pm |
Heat from warm coolant must pass through the resistance offered by the metal that separates it from cool air on the other side of the metal. Consider that if the metal were thicker, heat would have a more difficult time traveling through the metal, thus the coolant would retain more heat and it's temperature would be higher than it would be if the tube was thinner. Scale build-up (actually mineral deposits) is mechanism whose result is similar to that of increasing tube thickness. If an additive can prevent mineral deposits, it will improve the heat transfer process. In my line of work we account for "fouling factor" by appropriately increasing the surface area of the heat exchange surface (use a bigger radiator from the get go), thus allowing for deterioration of performance to a design condition at some point in the future. That's my 7 AM answer.
I was also curious to know if any of the manufacturer's would claim that their additive would decrease the resistance to heat flow of the "boundary layer" that also exists at the interface between the metal and the coolant. Consider a single pane of glass installed in your house, and the temperature gradient that would exist across this glass when it is 70F indoors and 0F outdoors. The glass itself offers virtually no insulating effect. Rather, there is a thin film (not something you can see) on both the indoor and outdoor surfaces of the glass that provides the bulk of the insulating effect. The temperature of the indoor surface of the glass itself might be around 15F or a little higher, while the temperature of the outside surface might be about 13F or a little lower. Were it not for the resistance of these boundary layers, the indoor and outdoor temperatures would be nearly the same, and you'd be freezing your ass off!!!
The same condition exists in a radiator. The thin metal offers virtually no resistance to heat flow. So, if one could reduce the resistance of either one or both boundary layers, the radiator would provide lower coolant temperatures. I didn't see that anyone made this claim.
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Take It Easy ... Buck
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CosmicTraveler
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Posted: July/20/09 at 11:35pm |
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Hey Pat,
I'm not disputing that any of these products will lower coolant temperatures. I was most curious as to their explanation of how/why it does so.
You might notice that I editted my prior post to properly read "surface tension". This property of a fluid explains why the level of water in a glass is not perfectly flat, but rather curls upward very near to where it touches the glass. It also explains why droplets of fluid form on a perfectly fat surface, instead of having the fluid spread out evenly to cover the surface in a thinner layer of fluid. I am stumped as to how reducing surface tension will lower coolant temperatures. The pressure in a radiator is far greater than forces developed by surface tension, and it's just hard to believe that coolant alone would not completely fill all cavities in the radiator.
Perhaps I'll drop the Redline folks a note, but I highly doubt if they'll disclose their secrets. Results are what counts, and you've seen that for yourself. I don't doubt what you experienced.
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Take It Easy ... Buck
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Kristin
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Posted: July/20/09 at 11:40pm |
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Bruce - Thanks for the science lesson!! Now if my chem text books had used examples like this, I might have paid more attention in high school.
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nicknbecka
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Posted: July/21/09 at 1:19am |
That's funny, my chemistry teacher used the 50/50 antifreeze mix as an example of specific gravity, and it's probably the only reason I can still remember it! This was really bugging me for some reason and I did some Googlin' and stumbled across this article: http://www.jcna.com/library/tech/tech0011.html They say that reducing surface tension aids in heat transfer because hot spots make for vaporization- with lower surface tension making vaporized micro bubbles disperse more quickly and allowing more coolant to reach the hotter parts of the engine. There's even a graph!  Edited by nicknbecka - July/21/09 at 1:21am |
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CINIMIN
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Posted: July/21/09 at 1:31am |
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I was curious about this thread since I used to use "wetting agents" in film processing to break the surface tension and allow film to dry without water spots. One of the possibilities for more effective cooling in an automobile cooling system could be a reduction in bubble formation and cavitation in the water pump. One interesting fact is that wetting agents are much more effective in 100% water cooling systems as opposed to 50% glycol / water based systems.
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Jack -
<font color=RED>CINIMIN [/COLOR] 2006 CR/W MCS - 6spd - LSD -15% Pulley - Dinan CAI ASA JH6's Koni FSD's 22mm Bar Have you hugged a curve today? |
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johnf36
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Posted: July/21/09 at 3:00am |
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Thanks Mister Wizard
 For Test purposes lets say we have a clean system and distilled water in out system and at this time we have no scale . Now they only real way I know to reduce temp comes in several ways. 1. more cooling surface, aka bigger radiator 2. a constant source of fresh, might be a pain with a garden hose hanging out of the hood. 3. increasing your transfer rate efficiency Is it possible they are using the term surface tension improperly? When what they really mean is surface resistance? If we reduce the surface resistance between the cooler and the coolant hence reducing the friction between the two would you not get a higher rate of latent heat transfer? So in reality you would be making your coolant slippery and more efficient at transferring heat. The other question I think would be its ability to absorb heat from the heat source and carry it away to be transferred for release? Bruce but are we introducing Surfactants to induce wetting? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wetting |
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onramp
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Posted: July/21/09 at 12:34pm |
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Hiya, Bruce: I know - no dispute. You raise some good questions - I'm really interested in the answers. In the Porsche Club, a fellow named Al Caldwell is a national tech guy, and he raises really good questions about things like fuel formulation and the effects of ethanol and water on Porsche fuel injection systems. He would call various people and end up doing an article that really brought home some of the issues surrounding vehicle behavior with various gasolines. Al is why I use only Chevron gasoline. I would call someone and ask, but then I never ask the right questions. Ask my wife... So - I hope you can get some answers!
The surface tension (or resistance) is the right direction for the subject. I saw a Redline sales presentation where the Redline guy put about a tablespoon of water on a piece of glass, and it kind of had that bubbled up look - y'all know what I mean. He put a drop of RWW on the bubble and the water flattened out and washed off the glass. About that point the Red Bull ladies came by handing out samples and I immediately lost interest in the Redline guy or I might know more. And as you might guess, it wasn't totally the tricked out little Mini the Red Bull ladies were driving that was responsible for drawing me away. Yes, they could have a ride around the track in my car, and yes, I would help with fastening the 5 point harness... Don't need no Red Bull... |
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johnf36
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Posted: July/21/09 at 1:04pm |
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Yes that was RWW breaking the surface tension on the water drop. I am thinking one of the things Bruce was getting at is that is fine on a peice of glass, but I believe things act differently under pressure.
Any pictures Pat John |
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If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough.
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onramp
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Posted: July/21/09 at 2:08pm |
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Pictures?? Not that I would share!
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onramp
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Posted: July/21/09 at 2:09pm |
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Uh, you don't mean pictures of the guy showing off the Redline products? Dude...
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johnf36
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Posted: July/21/09 at 2:29pm |
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Of the water drop Pat , what pictures did you think I meant , lololol
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If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough.
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johnf36
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Posted: July/21/09 at 2:32pm |
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I only get the magizine for the article.
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If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough.
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CosmicTraveler
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Posted: July/21/09 at 2:41pm |
I am humbled by your appreciation! Among other things I mentor young engineering talent, so perhaps I try a wee bit harder from wanting their lights to turn on quicker.
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Take It Easy ... Buck
'06 MCS JCW CR/CR |
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CosmicTraveler
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Posted: July/21/09 at 3:45pm |
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To nicknbecka, and everyone who reads the web page you found,
That link offers good explanations for relevant fluid properties. And, the part about nucleate boiling is very appropriate for select coolant passages in areas of extreme heat transfer. With this explanation being much clearer than given in the ad I viewed, several dormant brain cells were activated and I'll happily accept that lowering surface tension is most desireable for the reason cited.
The article was so good that I hesitate to highlight two obvious shortcomings, but I will anyway! Since the article was geared toward chemistry, it should have discussed the abilities of different mixtures to discourage fouling - a basic consideration for all hydronic heat transfer systems. And, the cooling system in a car is normally a closed system that operates at pressures higher than atmospheric. For the experiments he should have used a pressure cooker, not an open-top pie tin.
You might correctly guess that I'm pretty handy with pumps too. So, believe me when I say YOU DO NOT WANT CAVITATION at the inlet to any pump. In this operating condition pump performance is completely unpredictable, except that fluid flow is always less than intended. Not to mention that the impeller will be destroyed in short order, so even if the problem that causes cavitation is corrected, pump performnce will be less than expected. Should I add that cavitation is the creation and rapid collapse of vapor (steam) bubbles. It occurs because the pressure at the inlet to the pump is insufficient to maintain the fluid in a completely liquid state. The result is the same as receiving a constant barrage of artillery shells. Additives are not intended to mitigate this condition.
Now, bring on the Red Bull Ladies. I don't drink the stuff either, but we'll find something else to "wet" our appetites.
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Take It Easy ... Buck
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johnf36
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Posted: July/21/09 at 4:19pm |
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Bruce relating to cavitation, beside speed and volume how does viscosity effect it?
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johnf36
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Posted: July/21/09 at 4:30pm |
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Bruce relating to cavitation, beside speed and volume how does viscosity effect it?
I should add here that most water pump are not positive displacement pumps and to aggressive of a pitch will cause cavitation. This is all so a good time to point out over running you pump speed will cause cavitation. I would like to ad that cavitation also adds to progressive over heating. John |
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CosmicTraveler
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Posted: July/23/09 at 3:21pm |
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Have to crack the books and get back to you on viscosity. Most of the time it's not a concern for what we do - with one notable exception being glycol mixtures on the colder end - like pumping pudding!
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Take It Easy ... Buck
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Wildfamily
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Posted: July/23/09 at 11:19pm |
Hey! I actually remember that from my high school physics class!
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onramp wrote: