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Just about done with NW MINI

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    Posted: September/05/09 at 2:35am
I've been having intermittent overheating problems with my MC for about a year and a half. Every few months it starts overheating at idle and I take it in. NW MINI bleeds the air out of the system changes some random part and charges me a bunch of money and says it is fine. I tell them each time that I expect that I am getting exhaust into the cooling system, please check. They say they check and that all is fine. Last weekend coming back from Yakima it started to overheat. I bled the system and took it in. Told the please look at the history and see if you can find the problem. They changed the cooling fan charged me a bunch of money and said that was the only problem. A couple days later Shelly is on her way home from Olympia and it overheats.

She dropped the car off and guess what? exhaust gasses in the cooling system. At least a head gasket ($1800) maybe the head, ($4500). The fact that it may cost me a head when I could have gotten away with a head gasket a year ago (and saved about $1800 in other tail chasing "fixes").

So I know now they have either defrauded me or been incompetent. I'm not sure which one.
Gordon
Clifford, '14 Countryman All4 S
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CINIMIN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/05/09 at 4:53am
Do you know if during their diagnostics they ever did a compression test?  That would generally show a bad head gasket - I think.
Jack -

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote garumph Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/05/09 at 8:13am
They told me they did on at least two visits. I asked and was charged for it.
Gordon
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote johnf36 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/05/09 at 8:41am
I would say yes Jack, but based on Martin's exp with head issue at NW I too don't have much faith in NW trouble shooting heads.

I would say a phone call to corporate is in order here Gordon.

You are sure it is not the flames getting hot because you are not moving


John
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote garumph Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/05/09 at 9:09am
I'm just gathering facts at this point. I've registered my unhappiness with how this has been handled with NW MINI. Let's see how they handle it.
Gordon
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote YakiMini Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/05/09 at 12:50pm
I'm sorry to hear this! To bad you don't have a MCS... or you could get a New Fully Ported Cylinder Head for less....
MINI-less... If God allows, I will have one again some day. :D
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CINIMIN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/05/09 at 1:34pm
John - have to give them credit though, when they found the problem, they made it right.
 
Just wondering if there is a way a bad head gasket could allow exhaust gas into the cooling system without showing up on a compression check?  Could it have been too smal a leak to affect compression but still allow exhaust gas thru?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote garumph Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/05/09 at 1:44pm
They said they also did a leak down test. That should show up just about any leaks in the system. That is unless you don't know what you are doing.
Gordon
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote johnf36 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/05/09 at 2:34pm
Jack I will give them credit for finially fixing the mess that was made. But not for finding the problem, sorry.

Actually Tristan it is good Gordon has just a Cooper or his head gasket would be getting blammed on a 15% pulley.

As far as a blown head gasket a pressure test on the cooling system will show leaks.
If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote johnf36 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/05/09 at 2:43pm
I should also put this out there, that progressive over heats are not a normal sign of blown head gaskets.
If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote garumph Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/06/09 at 9:25am
The overheats weren't caused directly by the head gasket. It was causing air to get into the cooling system. Once the cooling system was bled it would be fine again for a while. They replaced the thermostat, the water pump, and cooling fan. Each on separate visits. The first time in they just bled the system and couldn't find a problem.
Gordon
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote johnf36 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/07/09 at 3:03am
Gordon, here is something to think about. Based on the information you are giving here I would be willing to say it is not air but a lack of pressure.  ????

I will let everyone think about that for a while then I will explain my position.

John


BTW which leak down test did they do???


Edited by johnf36 - September/07/09 at 3:05am
If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CosmicTraveler Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/07/09 at 8:19am

If air is "leaking" into the cooling system, then coolant is leaking out.  This leaking coolant is either on the floor/road or exitting as steam out the tail pipe (starting from as far upstream as the cylinder(s) themsleves).

I'm waiting John ... while also WORKING on a holiday.  Unhappy
   Take It Easy ... Buck

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote johnf36 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/07/09 at 12:13pm
Got the yard done. Okay CT this might be a good chance for you to add something here. As you pointed out when you have a air link the water also finds that location and goes there too. Gordon has not reflected lost fluids or cross contamination or H2O being where it should not be, he has also not reported poor idle, lose of power, fowled plugs or funny latte stuff in the motor oil.

To date NW has replaced the thermostat, the water pump, and cooling fan ( I would hope all of these things are working now) I believe they most likely worked in the first place.

So let me take this off track . This will help explain what may be happening since some people panic over car repair.

Lets go to Grandma's Kitchen about this time of the year as the crops get ready for the picking people use to do something called canning. There are many different ways of preparing all of these canned goods but most of them all end up in a pressure cooker.

Most pressure cookers are set at 15 psi (thats those weights Grandma said to not touch) this is done to allow water temperature to reach 240 to 252 degrees to kill all bacteria and safely preserve your canned goodies. Okay so water boils at 212 degrees and Grandma can use her little weights on the pressure cooker to raise the internal pressure to 15psi so that she can get her water up over 240 degrees to kill the bad stuff.

Do any of these numbers ring a bell??

A engines cooling system is a closed pressureized system. Minis cooling system runs 14 to 18 psi so that your water will not boil when it reaches tempatures of 240 to 260 before heading off to be cooled.

So if we go back to old school I might tell Gordon to go get a new radiator cap. But with all of this new plastic stuff and pressure relief valves I am not 100% sure where to look in a Mini. But to me your over heating problem is coming from not being able to build pressure like Grandmas pressure cooker causing your coolent to boil creating vapor locks hens the need to bleed things.

just my 2 cents

John




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote garumph Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/07/09 at 12:24pm
too late, the radiator cap was one of the first things replaced. It was replaced twice. I'm well aware of the need to pressurize the cooling system. It was also one of the first things checked on the initial visit. Again according to NW MINI it is pressurizing fine.

They system is losing fluid, not a lot. It is blowing it into the overflow. When it is having problems there is fluid full to the brim. It doesn't get sucked back into the system.

As someone who as worked on cars for over 40 years, I had a pretty good feeling this was a head gasket from the very beginning. It showed all the classic signs. NW MINI didn't believe me.
Gordon
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CosmicTraveler Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/07/09 at 12:33pm

I pondered on that for a moment earlier today as well, but there should be evidence somewhere of the coolant and/or steam existing the cooling system - and we haven't heard of any unusual spatter just yet.  Likwise, I'd have to get under the bonnet or into Bentley for a while.  However, extremely busy here so that's not likely to happen for a few days.  I've also considered a very small crack in the head gasket which opens when hot and closes just enough when cold - perhaps when any testing is being done.  My expereince with blow gaskets does not correlate very well with this particular problem.  When mine have blown - they blow pretty quick, not 6 months later.  It got so I watched the temperature gauge and knew when to pull over.  It was over very quickly (5 times), like seconds.

Just saw your update ... Yes, a blown head gasket could over-pressurize the cooling system due to high temperature exhasut gas, but so could a blocked coolant passage.  Either creates steam and pressure.  I don't know how you'd find that until you find the bad section of gasket or crack in the head.


Edited by CosmicTraveler - September/07/09 at 12:38pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote johnf36 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/07/09 at 12:45pm
Did not mean that you didn't Gordon, was just putting it out there of the others.

If they did that then did they check for leaks to the combustion chamber with a CO2 detector like they where suppose to.
If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CINIMIN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/07/09 at 1:05pm
I only have experience with one blown head gasket - that was on a 76 Honda Accord and it was a very common problem - due to faulty head studs as I recall - they expanded and allowed the gasket to blow.  I am finding this discussion interesting and informative and thank those who are contributing. 
 
One thing that I seem to recall from discussions with people who have had blown head gaskets is that once one starts to go, the damage increases until it affects the running of the engine - and shows big clouds of steam.   True?
Jack -

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote johnf36 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/07/09 at 1:36pm
Gordon , let me put this another way. When a car comes in with problems like yours.

Mini is to do the system pressure check, check the cap then do a CO2 check. If these things are done properly the majority of the time the problem will be found. For those wondering most radiator shops can check for CO2 gases in the coolant.




Edited by johnf36 - September/08/09 at 2:57am
If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote onramp Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/07/09 at 10:17pm
Hmmm...  Interesting...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote garumph Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/08/09 at 12:13am
They found CO2 this visit. That was the call Friday. Exhaust gas in the coolant. either head gasket or head. I don't know what they were doing on earlier visits except soaking me with now questionable charges. The first time I brought it in was after a track day in November almost 2 years ago. The temperature was spiking to the red when it was at idle and dropped as soon as you reved the engine. The coolant overflow was to the brim with evidence of overflow. They bled the system did some checks and sent me on my way.

It did the same thing after a track session in January, they replaced the thermostat, bled the system and sent me on my way. I figured It was having problems with the track.

Then about a year ago, with no track time, it did it again, they replace the water pump, bled the system and sent me on my way.

About 6 months after that it was the water pump housing.

Last week I don't think they even checked the history on the car and changed out the cooling fan. I had to bleed the system to get back from Yakima when the overheating started.

There is obviously air getting in to the coolant. Hopefully they will be able to pinpoint the source this time.
Gordon
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote garumph Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/08/09 at 12:17am
We are in an automatic MC as a loaner. Damn what a dog. It looks like a MINI, but it is a slug. The MC Clubman auto was even worse. Talk about a way to kill a fun car. If you get an auto, you have to get the S, otherwise the car cant even get out of it's own way.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote johnf36 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/08/09 at 1:22pm
Here is some light reading, and yes it is a MCS but I think there might be some Deju vu here.
http://www.northamericanmotoring.com/forums/stock-problems-issues/150185-multiple-overheats.html

BTW you might have them look at you catalytic converter too.





Edited by johnf36 - September/08/09 at 1:29pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hapa Haole Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/08/09 at 2:09pm
Originally posted by onramp onramp wrote:

Hmmm...  Interesting...
 
I'll second that...
 
On a different note: I'm thinking my sister's Ford Aerostar has a blown head gasket.  I haven't had much time to investigate (i.e. cylinder pressure test), but there's a substantial amount of oil in her coolant tank. It's odd since the engine seems to be running fairly normal.  My sister admitted to adding coolant recently.  The oil was recently changed and doesn't quite have that rootbeer look to it yet.  There's quite a bit of oil leakage underneath and it's hard to tell where it's all coming from since the engine has oil everywhere...  I still find it odd that it seems to be running okay.
 
Sorry to hear all the problems you've had with your MINI Gordon...  I wish the problem could be easily solved and fixed.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote garumph Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/08/09 at 2:50pm
sounds a lot like my problem. Including the same incompentance with MINI.

Oh, they measured the head. warped. Time to replace. We went over what was done and their notes don't match mine. I didn't save the service notes, and they weren't complete.

The service guy is going to try to get some reductions above the PS MINI discount.

Edited by garumph - September/08/09 at 2:55pm
Gordon
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote johnf36 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/08/09 at 3:07pm
I thought you would like that.

Did they every check for CO2 other then this time?

I bring up the cat because for what ever the cause, antifreeze is very hard on them and can lead to a short life.


If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote garumph Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/08/09 at 3:42pm
I don't know. I specifically asked them about the head gasket during a couple of the visits. With air in the cooling system, I would assume that would be one of the first things to check. They assured me that it was fine.
Gordon
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