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Wildfamily View Drop Down

PSMINI Expert Advisor

PSMINI Member

Joined: March/11/06
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 4559

Posted: February/12/10 at 6:37am

Kristin. Let me clarify my clarification. The Board agreed to the plan..we knew what the plan was and how it was going to be accomplished. What we didn't know was what the actual link was (nor did it ever get PM'd or e-mailed to us). Hope that is clearer to you now.

'15 F55 Cooper Volcanic Orange
'80 Mini English White

Wildfamily View Drop Down

PSMINI Expert Advisor

PSMINI Member

Joined: March/11/06
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 4559

Posted: February/12/10 at 6:52am

Dave out of concern to your fellow club members would please identify the person or person(s) that e-mailed you the information if you didn't get it from a PM. You don't have to do it publically but you are welcome to e-mail the board members and share it. Thanks.

The certified letter you received didn't refer to PMs because outside of the Privacy/Security issue with PMs our ultimate and on-going request with you has simply been the following (as stated in the certified letter that you receieved and were asked to respond to earlier this week):

1. "the club's domain name registrations must be transferred to the club...this should include psmini.org, psmini.net, and psmini.com"

2. "the account admin, contact, and any agreements with ReachOne (our webhost) must be changed to reflect one of the currently named officers...the software (Web Wiz) is also licensed to the club and must be turned over as well."

'15 F55 Cooper Volcanic Orange
'80 Mini English White

WOODSTOCK

PSMINI Expert Advisor

PSMINI Ambassador (past President)

Joined: February/07/07
Location: Everett, WA
Status: Offline
Points: 1610

Posted: February/12/10 at 7:23am

As Roy indicated earlier, the site mentioned in the PM was not available through the search engines (like Google), so it wouldn't have been found that way. The only other means would have been through a 'whois' domain name search and that's not something most people sit down and do unless they are specifically looking for something.

The PM information is stored in the database on the web server and as Roy indicated, it was technically probably accessed from there not through the PM system itself, but we do want people to be aware that PM data has been accessed.

There is one point I want to clear up regarding payment for the domain names. Dave has paid by credit card for the domain names, however the expense for that has been submitted to the club for reimbursement as a club expense in the same way we have handled other club expenses that have been reimbursed. Payments for the web hosting have been paid by check directly to our web host.

Also, the certified letter sent was intended to address only the domain names and web hosting. We did ask for a response by a specified date and if you had been unable to reply, you could have let us know a date when you could reply.

Edited by WOODSTOCK - February/12/10 at 7:23am

WOODSTOCK: Linda's 2005 LY MCSC with feel good graphics and go fast mods.
CINIMIN: Jack's 2006 Chili Red/White Coupe
KEMO-SABE: Our 2011 Bright White/Blk All4 Countryman

Kristin

MINI Motorer

Joined: November/10/04
Location: Roy, Washington
Status: Offline
Points: 1670

Posted: February/12/10 at 7:52am

Yes, Linda, that "who is" site is what I used. That Google is a wonderful thing. I Googled domain names and that's the site to which Google pointed me. I hear Bing is good, too, but Google is what I have bookmarked at home.

I am quite sure that you or others were doing the same thing regarding our south sound site.

kulmini

MINI Motorer

Joined: January/27/07
Location: Lacey, WA
Status: Offline
Points: 1508

Posted: February/12/10 at 8:18am

This problem is between Dave and the PSMini leadership and only they can solve it. I suggest they meet one on one or with a mediator and solve their differences. This impasse is not going to be solved on this forum.

The problem I have with this entire post is that the PSMini leadership felt the need to indicate in their posting that a newly formed club had part in it and was using PSMini membership information obtained dishonestly to their advantage. I am here to tell you that the newly formed club has not and will not use any PSMini membership listings to solicit membership.

The new club has done one mailing to 15 individuals, individuals that are personal friends to one or more or the six founders of the new club. Most of those that were invited live in the south end or had approached one or more of the founders and expressed interest in the newly formed club. Also keep in mind that all six of the founders of the new club are members of PSMini and all have contributed to the success of PSMini over the years.

I ask that the PSMini Leadership recognize that SSMINI in not part of their problems with Dave and leave SSMINI out of it. I also think that the PSMini leadership owes SSMINI an apology for their unfounded statements. We have used due diligence in the formation of SSMINI and will continue to do so.

Don

Edited by kulmini - February/12/10 at 8:21am

Roy

MINI Motorer

Joined: March/09/08
Location: Kirkland
Status: Offline
Points: 283

Posted: February/12/10 at 12:24pm

Kristin wrote:

Yes, Linda, that "who is" site is what I used. That Google is a wonderful thing. I Googled domain names and that's the site to which Google pointed me. I hear Bing is good, too, but Google is what I have bookmarked at home.

I am quite sure that you or others were doing the same thing regarding our south sound site.

Kristin, you just keep digging yourself in deeper.

First, "who is" sites only provide domain name registration information, and they require you to enter the domain name of the site you're interested in. Regardless, they don't provide links to anything but the home page. The pages accessed were subpages.
Obviously, it occured to me that someone may have guessed the domain name, but the website doesn't have a home page (it's blank), so it wasn't possible to get to the subpages from there.
Whenever you click on a link on a web page, the URL of that page is sent to the site being linked to. So when you click a link on Google, the linked website knows that you got there from Google. Interestingly, none of the log files show the pages were accessed from Google ... or any other search site.
Search engines crawl a site starting with the home or default page, and then crawl out via links from there. There are no links on the site's home page - it's blank. So the subpages and images were invisible to search engines. Companies do this all the time to hide content they're not ready to make "live" to end users.
There were 4 links in the PM. Of the people who accessed the links, all accessed all 4 URLs, as if they were all working from the same list. All of them started with one of the links in the PM. Most of them never hit the home page.
It's hard to fathom that Dave, who supposedly found his way to the URLs from an email from a mystery sender, browsed the exact same 4 links, on the same day, as you did, though you claim you found your way there through Google / Whois.

As webmaster, I've already been through all of these scenarious with the board, and the evidence is very concrete. It simply wasn't possible to get to the URLs from any other way other than the links in the PM, and the logs files support that. Your explanation simply doesn't hold water.

Roy (formerly Shazoom)
2008 CR/B JCW Cabrio

GoKart

MINI Motorer

Joined: August/30/07
Status: Offline
Points: 709

Posted: February/12/10 at 12:51pm

Roy wrote:

Kristin, you just keep digging yourself in deeper.

First, "who is" sites only provide domain name registration information, and they require you to enter the domain name of the site you're interested in. Regardless, they don't provide links to anything but the home page. The pages accessed were subpages.
Obviously, it occured to me that someone may have guessed the domain name, but the website doesn't have a home page (it's blank), so it wasn't possible to get to the subpages from there.
Whenever you click on a link on a web page, the URL of that page is sent to the site being linked to. So when you click a link on Google, the linked website knows that you got there from Google. Interestingly, none of the log files show the pages were accessed from Google ... or any other search site.
Search engines crawl a site starting with the home or default page, and then crawl out via links from there. There are no links on the site's home page - it's blank. So the subpages and images were invisible to search engines. Companies do this all the time to hide content they're not ready to make "live" to end users.
There were 4 links in the PM. Of the people who accessed the links, all accessed all 4 URLs, as if they were all working from the same list. All of them started with one of the links in the PM. Most of them never hit the home page.
It's hard to fathom that Dave, who supposedly found his way to the URLs from an email from a mystery sender, browsed the exact same 4 links, on the same day, as you did, though you claim you found your way there through Google / Whois.

Ya-da Ya-da Ya-da...

I asked once nicely for documentation and proof. All we have so far are words and accusations and innuendo.

"Show me the money!"
Put up or shut up...
No, dear, there's no one else...
Yes, Virginia, there is a Santa Claus.
"There are WMD's in Iraq and we know where they are!"
I'm from the government and I'm here to help you.
I promise I won't ___.
"Mission Accomplished"
The check's in the mail.
"Where's the beef?"

Let's see some proof! If what is claimed happened, we the members deserve to see it. If what is loudly proclaimed cannot be proven, then we the members will have some decisions to make.

If what was 'done' was done then it's either illegal or it's not. If it's illegal, then prosecute. If it's not, then what?

Let us see the proof of these damning allegations. Otherwise you're just Fox 'News'.

WOODSTOCK

PSMINI Expert Advisor

PSMINI Ambassador (past President)

Joined: February/07/07
Location: Everett, WA
Status: Offline
Points: 1610

Posted: February/12/10 at 1:20pm

How childish and entirely unnecessary. I think Roy has spelled out pretty well how we know the information came from PMs.

The original post was made because we do have evidence that PM information was compromised and that we are powerless at present to prevent further occurrences because of the domain and website ownership issue. This could all be resolved pretty simply if Dave would release those to the current board and we could all move on. That's all we're asking for and what the club deserves.

WOODSTOCK: Linda's 2005 LY MCSC with feel good graphics and go fast mods.
CINIMIN: Jack's 2006 Chili Red/White Coupe
KEMO-SABE: Our 2011 Bright White/Blk All4 Countryman

MINIRacer05 View Drop Down

MINI Motorer

PSMINI Nonmember

Joined: August/20/09
Location: Puyallup
Status: Offline
Points: 33

Posted: February/12/10 at 4:15pm

Please reference the following for steps for further resolution to this issue:

ICANN (Internet Corporation for Assigned Names and Numbers) Uniform Domain Name Dispute Resolution Policy

http://www.icann.org/en/dndr/udrp/policy.htm

johnf36

PSMINI Expert Advisor

PSMINI Member

Joined: August/30/07
Location: Ephrata, Wa.
Status: Offline
Points: 8612

Posted: February/12/10 at 4:24pm

here
http://www.icann.org/en/dndr/udrp/policy.htm

If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough.

GoKart

MINI Motorer

Joined: August/30/07
Status: Offline
Points: 709

Posted: February/12/10 at 11:25pm

WOODSTOCK wrote:

How childish and entirely unnecessary. I think Roy has spelled out pretty well how we know the information came from PMs.

Really, Linda? Now you're stooping to name calling? LMAO "Childish" is a bit like the kettle calling the pot black, is it not? Ms. "I'll take the ball I stole and play in my yard with my puppet friends..."

You SAY you have information, yet all we have is your word--and we've known what that's worth for a couple years now.

Just because someone or a group of someones with a not-so-hidden agenda says something over and over and over we should all just take your/their word for it? If so, you have been watching too much Faux News and Glen Beck.

I'm calling your hand. It's time to show your cards...

IF you have proof that what you say happened AND you have proof that Dave did it, simply print out the damning evidence and publish it. If none of your puppets knows how to print whatever you're looking at on your screen, I'm happy to tell you--there's a "Prnt Scrn" button on your keyboard. Then you scan it to a pdf file and post it in the members-only area.

Until the above is done, any thinking member will ignore this whole rant from the Board and its puppets as a ploy to get what is not legally theirs. I know I will.

What ever happened to having FUN? Does anyone else out there still wonder where the fun and camaraderie went and when this Club became all about who has the power? For example, why did they spend hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of Club dollars for a Christmas party that even those who didn't go got to help pay for with their annual dues?

Just tired of asking questions... and getting "trust us" as the only answer...

Boomer

MINI Motorer

PSMINI Nonmember

Joined: July/20/07
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1073

Posted: February/13/10 at 12:41am

This is absolutely insane! It's a car club!

Just in case all you people forgot what this club is about, read this post by one of our members: http://www.psmini.org/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=6347

It a example of the reason I joined this club. Good people with a true appreciation for a little car that just brings out emotions in each owner and a place to share those emotions.

Along with the emotions, you have a knowledge base and "cliques" formed based on interests. Concours, drives, rallies, coffees, mods, track, autocross and just getting together for no other reason than then to talk about these great little cars.

If for some reason, you aren't getting what you need or want from the club------MOVE ON!

If you want to start your own club, forum, group or whatever-------HAVE AT IT!

Just don't hold YOUR OLD CLUB AND MEMBERS HOSTAGE because your unhappy with something or someone.

Don't know all the facts, not taking sides, just giving my .02 cents since I really enjoy this site and the people that contribute to furthering my enjoyment of my MINI. Plus, I really want the club to grow and prosper so I'll continue to have a place to ask questions, read tales about other MINI owners or tell stories about my MINI.

Cheers!

07 MCS, JIC Cross C/O, JCW BBK, Milltek exhaust, RR DP, Helix I/C, RMW tune (208.5 WHP & 238.3 WTQ)Ray's (17 lbs) and Nitto NT01 for track duty

kulmini

MINI Motorer

Joined: January/27/07
Location: Lacey, WA
Status: Offline
Points: 1508

Posted: February/13/10 at 1:23am

Boomer,

I agree with everything you have said except for SSMINIs involvement. We have nothing to do with this. This is between Dave and the Board and it is they who are going to have to solve it. AND this forum is not the place to do that.

I hate to see all this back and forth, it accomplishes nothing but more hard feelings, why?

PSMini like SSMINI is just a car club and nothing more. Let's move on!

I cannot control what folks post but I ask that everyone restrain themselves and further that the PSMini Board lock this thread.

Don

Escape Pod View Drop Down

MINI Motorer

Joined: July/28/05
Location: Kirkland
Status: Offline
Points: 740

Posted: February/13/10 at 1:49am

John,

I'm not sure exactly what it is you want to see as proof. The webmaster set up a test to determine whether the board's suspicions were correct, that someone was violating the privacy of PMs. A test site was set up, to which the only pointer was content in a PM. The site was accessed by people who were neither the sender, nor the recipient of the PM.

The webmaster has provided a detailed explanation of why it's so clear that the pages accessed couldn't have been "happened upon", found by search engine, or discovered by means that did not involve a violation of member privacy.

As far as the Christmas party goes, this club has for years had major events that are a net draw on club funds. The XXX car show? The Winged Victory Ralley? I'm sorry if you're not happy with the board's decisions, but we have a board, and they're elected, and they represent the membership as a whole.

We'd all like very much to get beyond all this yelling and return to the joy of being in a MINI club. But I appreciate the board looking out for us by trying to secure the website and the domain name, and trying to protect our privacy. It's unfortunate that they need to do so. I also think they had an obligation to the membership to let us know that they had reason to believe the PMs had been compromised, and that it may become necessary to move the website to a new domain.

Roy & Beth Morey
Red/Blk JCW Roadster (His)
Silver/Red JCW Coupe (Hers)

BurnerS

PSMINI Admin

PSMINI President

Joined: March/17/08
Location: Everett
Status: Offline
Points: 1493

Posted: February/13/10 at 2:18am

kulmini wrote:

Boomer,

I hate to see all this back and forth, it accomplishes nothing but more hard feelings, why?

PSMini like SSMINI is just a car club and nothing more. Let's move on!

I cannot control what folks post but I ask that everyone restrain themselves and further that the PSMini Board lock this thread.

Don

I agree it is time to lock this thread and deal with Dave personally.. I appreciate the fact that you are all telling us that our messages had been comprimised, this is getting out of hand..Sorry! stop the madness and start talking to the person and get this solved..

Thank you and I am no longer watching this Thread..

Time for a drive.. !!!!!!!

New 2013 Clubby S - JCW Engine tune - JCW Brake Kit - JCW Exhaust - JCW Cold Air Intake - Lowered - Racing Wheels

Hapa Haole View Drop Down

PSMINI Expert Advisor

PSMINI Ambassador (past Events Officer)

Joined: October/22/06
Location: Graham-Kapowsin
Status: Offline
Points: 3256

Posted: February/13/10 at 2:53am

Boomer wrote:

This is absolutely insane! It's a car club!

Just in case all you people forgot what this club is about, read this post by one of our members: http://www.psmini.org/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=6347

It a example of the reason I joined this club. Good people with a true appreciation for a little car that just brings out emotions in each owner and a place to share those emotions.

If for some reason, you aren't getting what you need or want from the club------MOVE ON!

If you want to start your own club, forum, group or whatever-------HAVE AT IT!

Just don't hold YOUR OLD CLUB AND MEMBERS HOSTAGE because your unhappy with something or someone.

Cheers!

I'll 2nd that! It saddens me to see this.

I'll be looking forward to the next MINI gathering. Until then...

Happy Motoring,

Brenda

Brenda w/LUV2MTR plates- Aug '06 S, Hyper Blue, white top/sport stripes, chrome in/out, all pkgs, English leather, chrono pack, HK stereo, Jan tune, CAI, 15%, H&R coilovers, rear sway bar, control arm

Hapa Haole View Drop Down

PSMINI Expert Advisor

PSMINI Ambassador (past Events Officer)

Joined: October/22/06
Location: Graham-Kapowsin
Status: Offline
Points: 3256

Posted: February/13/10 at 3:16am

Originally posted by kulmini

Boomer,

I hate to see all this back and forth, it accomplishes nothing but more hard feelings, why?

PSMini like SSMINI is just a car club and nothing more. Let's move on!

I cannot control what folks post but I ask that everyone restrain themselves and further that the PSMini Board lock this thread.

Don

...and why is it that I didn't receive a special little flyer in the mail (USPS) for the invite to SSMINI's coffee meet up at Forza in Tacoma on Saturday, Feb. 20th at 9:30 a.m.? Am I not invited? Do I not belong in the "click" of the south end? Is it "pick and choose" for who are members of Salish Sea MINI? I've had a couple of my PSMINI friends contact me wondering what it was about. I was saddened to hear that I wasn't invited especially since I live in the south end (further south than the invited guest that was mailed the postcard). The email I received states:

Tue, Feb 02, 2010 07:28 PM

"I received a special membership invitation from SSMini.org club in the mail today. There having an event on Feb 20th, Saturday, 9:30am at Forza Coffee in Tacoma. Not sure how they got my name and address but I sent my RSVP to attend. Have you ever heard of ssmini.org "Salish Sea Mini Motoring Club"?

Steve518

MINI Motorer

Joined: April/08/08
Location: Kapowsin
Status: Offline
Points: 22

Posted: February/13/10 at 3:36am

WOW! Talk about childish. It seems to me there is plenty of evidence, that this issue has been beat to Death! and that most did not learn to think before one speaks, especially if your speaking is in the form of a permanent record.

Husband of Hapa Haole "Brenda"

johnf36

PSMINI Expert Advisor

PSMINI Member

Joined: August/30/07
Location: Ephrata, Wa.
Status: Offline
Points: 8612

Posted: February/13/10 at 4:24am

It seems to me the purpose of this post was that the Webmaster found a breach in the security of the PM protocal and until the issue is resolved this problem will still exist.

Thank you Roy

If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough.

Hapa Haole View Drop Down

PSMINI Expert Advisor

PSMINI Ambassador (past Events Officer)

Joined: October/22/06
Location: Graham-Kapowsin
Status: Offline
Points: 3256

Posted: February/13/10 at 6:44am

johnf36 wrote:

It seems to me the purpose of this post was that the Webmaster found a breach in the security of the PM protocal and until the issue is resolved this problem will still exist.

Thank you Roy

So does that mean that the breach may also extend to personal information such as our home addresses? Can that information be available to the same person or persons who accessed the Private Messages (PMs)?

I have now been contacted by three PSMINI members that have received personal invites to a gathering that is not PSMINI affiliated. They did not know how their address was obtained as they told me they did not share it with anyone outside PSMINI. I have nothing against another MINI club forming, but I do have a problem with our information being shared without our consent.

Roy

MINI Motorer

Joined: March/09/08
Location: Kirkland
Status: Offline
Points: 283

Posted: February/13/10 at 9:06am

The sending of PMs is temporarily disabled for now. I apologize for the inconvenience and hope we can have the aforementioned website-related issues resolved soon.

I wanted people to still have access to their existing PMs, so you can still view and delete PMs, you just won't be able to reply to PMs or send new ones.

Thank you for your patience while we work to secure our club website.

Roy (formerly Shazoom)
2008 CR/B JCW Cabrio

CosmicTraveler View Drop Down

PSMINI Expert Advisor

PSMINI Member

Joined: September/16/07
Location: Covington
Status: Offline
Points: 1485

Posted: February/13/10 at 11:26am

Unbelievable.

Take It Easy ... Buck

'06 MCS JCW CR/CR

PSMINI Officers View Drop Down

PSMINI Admin

PSMINI Officers

Joined: October/27/09
Status: Offline
Points: 14

Posted: February/13/10 at 12:11pm

We left this thread open in the belief that it was important to allow the members to ask questions and express their views on the information we had an obligation to share. However, we agree that things have gotten off course. We are locking this thread for one week, to provide Dave with time to respond to the certified letter and turn over rights to the club’s website and domain.

Linda Grouell (president@psmini.org)

Kurt Hammond(vicepresident@psmini.org)

Brenda Fromhold(events@psmini.org)

Leanne Powell (secretary@psmini.org)

Dave Rinker (treasurer@psmini.org)

PSMINI Officers View Drop Down

PSMINI Admin

PSMINI Officers

Joined: October/27/09
Status: Offline
Points: 14

Posted: February/24/10 at 11:12am

We promised you an update, so here's where we are:

Dave released the 3 main domain names (of the 6 we pay for) and we have transferred them back to the club. We now have the rights to psmini.org, psmini.com, and psmini.net. That's good news and we've thanked him for that.

Now the bad news, we again notified Dave that we still needed full access and rights to the ReachOne host site and removal of his rights there so that we can take ownership and secure the club data, etc. We locked this post and indicated that we would allow him an additional week to respond. We sent him a request February 13th and he has not responded or acknowledged our request in any way.

Now we will execute Plan B (it's always good to have one of those isn't it?) and will communicate how this will or may impact you separately. For one thing, it will allow us to bring the software to a current status, incorporating several security fixes and turn back on PMs.

We will also be following up with those members that received data from the PM that we tracked and address that as a security violation on their part. Something that we can't allow.

You'll see some other changes in the near future as well. If, like us, you are tired of having to read all the negative postings that have taken place, you should know that we are also working to address that. It doesn't belong here and everyone agrees to these statements when they register for an ID on our forum:

You agree not to use this forum to post any material which is vulgar, defamatory, inaccurate, harassing, hateful, threatening, invading of others privacy, sexually oriented, or violates any laws. You also agree that you will not post any copyrighted material that is not owned by yourself or the owners of these forums.

You remain solely responsible for the content of your messages, and you agree to indemnify and hold harmless this forum and their agents with respect to any claim based upon any post you may make. We also reserve the right to reveal whatever information we know about you in the event of a complaint or legal action arising from any message posted by yourself.

Thanks for your patience through this and you are welcome to contact any of us with questions or concerns. Our emails are below.

Now let's get back to having some fun together!

Linda Grouell (president@psmini.org)

Kurt Hammond(vicepresident@psmini.org)

Brenda Fromhold(events@psmini.org)

Leanne Powell (secretary@psmini.org)

Dave Rinker (treasurer@psmini.org)

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