Replaced Supercharger, now engine won't start |
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SFarbo
PSMINI Member PSMINI Member Joined: September/06/14 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 17 |
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Posted: September/06/14 at 3:05pm |
Hey guys. I'm new here and not coincidentally in need of help. I replaced the supercharger on my '02 R53 because it was making unpleasant noises and appeared to be failing. I hit lots of roadblocks in getting that done such as needing to order and wait for tools and parts, and now it's been near 2 months since I started. Here's the run-down:
'02 R53 87k miles, was running fine except for SC noise -Got the car back together after replacing SC, water pump, and all associated gaskets and o-rings, and it won't start. It turns over like it's starting, but never fires up. -Was getting fault codes P1229, P0123, and P0222. Turns out I'd forgotten to plug the throttle body electrical connector back in. Fixed that, cleared codes. Even had a friend watch the TB while I feathered the throttle to make sure it moved. It does. -reset ECU. Nothing. -not getting fault codes anymore. -I've charged the battery back up, so that's not the issue. -I'm getting spark on all 4 plugs -Fuel pump works fine and fuel rail is getting recommended 52 psi. -I took everything mostly back down looking for something I missed, and everything seems fine. Cleaned some stuff for the heck of it and put it back together. Nothing. I'm really out of ideas at this point. This is the biggest project I've ever attempted to do on my Mini, and I may have gotten in over my head. It's probably something stupid, but I need someone who knows what they're looking at to help me. I've only been in Seattle a year, and everyone I know here seems to be either too artsy or too techy to know anything about cars. So I have come to you, the Mini Cooper knowledgeables of the Puget Sound, for help.
Is there anyone that could help me out or recommend some help? I'm in Bryant, near Wedgewood. I really don't want to put my car back together so it can be towed to some shop that will charge me an arm and a leg to tell me I plugged something in wrong. |
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SMOG
PSMINI Member PSMINI Member Joined: April/07/09 Location: Port Orchard Status: Offline Points: 4296 |
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There are members of this Forum who know the R53 very well so I suspect you will get help/ideas soon!
You might join the RMW Forum and as there as well. |
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I wish there was a local MINI Dealership, like our Honda, Subaru, Mazada and VW.
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CORNERS
PSMINI Expert Advisor PSMINI Member Joined: July/29/10 Location: Bothell, WA Status: Offline Points: 3733 |
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Hi. I know a lot about the R53 but have never seen this problem.
If the car is turning over and getting spark and fuel, we have to suspect air or the computer does not know when to fire the injectors (sensor problem).
Some ideas: - Is the camshaft position sensor wire connected? (above the passenger motor mount) - car probably won't start without this one. - Are the plug wires connected in the correct order? - Did you work on the timing chain at all? Is car in time? - Both mass airflow sensors connected up? (wiring for both, vacuum line for the pre-SC sensor) - and you didn't spray anything on them other than mass air flow sensor cleaner? Carb and choke cleaner will damage them. - Electrical connecters fully plugged in until they click and, no damaged wires/connectors? ...and a really obvious one but I have to ask: Did you stick a towel in the throttle body or intake tube when you had it apart, and forget to remove it? If so, it's stuck in the intake path somewhere and restricting airflow. Where is Bryant? I am not familiar with that place. Is it this one? I'm in the Bothell area. |
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CINIMIN
MINI Motorer Joined: August/27/05 Location: Everett WA Status: Offline Points: 4676 |
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Good list of things to check out Kurt - another obvious one would be gas in the gas tank... I think the Bryant area he is referring to is between U-Village and Wedgewood - |
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Jack -
<font color=RED>CINIMIN [/COLOR] 2006 CR/W MCS - 6spd - LSD -15% Pulley - Dinan CAI ASA JH6's Koni FSD's 22mm Bar Have you hugged a curve today? |
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SFarbo
PSMINI Member PSMINI Member Joined: September/06/14 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 17 |
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Thanks for the replies, guys.
Cinimin, yup. that's the Bryant I'm in. I'm right near the big Catholic cemetery. Corners, - Camshaft position sensor seems to be plugged in fine. (I just spent like 15 minutes trying to figure out how to even get it off to check.) -Plug wires are correct. They're conveniently labeled. -Closes I got to messing with timing was replacing the timing chain tensioner. The car was successfully started after that replacement and prior to starting on the SC though. Checking the timing might not be a bad idea, but I have no idea how to do that. - Both MAP sensor look good too. I didn't take either out or spray it with anything. Just now, I unplugged and replugged them. - Electrical connector are fine as far as I can tell. - No towel in the intake either. Should be clear unless something crawled in there or something. Also, Yes, I do have gas. About half a tank. Just to check that I wasn't somehow having issues reading fault codes on my ScanGauge, I just did a test where I unplugged the throttle body. As soon as I put the key in the ON position, it threw 2 of fault codes I saw before. So, it seems the computer thinks everything is fine. |
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'02 R53 - DDMWorks CAI, Sprint Booster, Megan Racing Short Shifter, WMW 15% Pulley, TSW Upper Motor Mount, Madness 22mm Rear Sway Bar, CB radio w/ 4' hatch mounted antenna for that sweet RC car look.
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brat s
PSMINI Member PSMINI Member Joined: June/18/14 Location: North Seattle Status: Offline Points: 51 |
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Are you getting a fuel trigger. You can have all the fuel pressure in the world but with no fuel trigger. It won't start. You can check it with a no I'd light. Just plug it in to your injector and when you crack your engine. It should flash. The flash means your injector is pulsing. If your injectors aren't pulsing. It won't start.
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onramp
PSMINI Expert Advisor PSMINI Member Joined: November/19/06 Location: Renton, WA Status: Offline Points: 2321 |
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noid light...
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2006 Hyper Blue JCW
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brat s
PSMINI Member PSMINI Member Joined: June/18/14 Location: North Seattle Status: Offline Points: 51 |
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I live in the maple leaf area, which I think is down the road from you. I know some auto part stores will let you rent tools but I'm not sure if they would have a noid light.
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brat s
PSMINI Member PSMINI Member Joined: June/18/14 Location: North Seattle Status: Offline Points: 51 |
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Yes its called a noid light. When plugged in to your injectors and as you crack your motor. They will flash everything is working right. The flashing means the injectors are passing like they should. No flash or just stays on. It means your injectors aren't pulsing and it won't start.
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onramp
PSMINI Expert Advisor PSMINI Member Joined: November/19/06 Location: Renton, WA Status: Offline Points: 2321 |
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Harbor Freight sells an inexpensive fuel injector test kit (with noids). Pat
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2006 Hyper Blue JCW
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brat s
PSMINI Member PSMINI Member Joined: June/18/14 Location: North Seattle Status: Offline Points: 51 |
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Not passing but pulsing. Stupid auto correct
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SFarbo
PSMINI Member PSMINI Member Joined: September/06/14 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 17 |
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There's the O'Reilly's in U-Village near me that rents tools. I got the fuel pressure test kit there. I'll check tomorrow about a noid light.
I had use of a friend's car for a while, but I had to give that back yesterday. So now I'm back to using dopey little Car2Go everywhere.
I really really miss having my own car. |
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'02 R53 - DDMWorks CAI, Sprint Booster, Megan Racing Short Shifter, WMW 15% Pulley, TSW Upper Motor Mount, Madness 22mm Rear Sway Bar, CB radio w/ 4' hatch mounted antenna for that sweet RC car look.
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CORNERS
PSMINI Expert Advisor PSMINI Member Joined: July/29/10 Location: Bothell, WA Status: Offline Points: 3733 |
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Yup, next is to verify if you are getting an injection pulse. I've seen people use 12v LED bulbs connected to a couple pigtail wires, if you don't have access to a special tool. It should flicker if the injector is getting a pulse. (I think it was a 12v. If that doesn't work, try a 5v. Worst that can happen is the LED burns out - and try reversing polarity, it will only light one way)
I was going to suggest pulling the fuel rail and seeing if the injectors are squirting fuel but that's a lot safer :-) You could also try spraying carb/choke spray (somwhere that it won't get on the MAP sensors) and see if the car turns over, but all that would tell you is whether spark timing is correct. This is a list of all sensors the ECU uses to manage the engine: Pre SC MAP sensor post SC MAP/IAT sensor Cam position sensor Crankshaft position sensor Throttle position sensor Engine coolant temperature sensor Precat O2 sensor Postcat O2 sensor Knock sensor Not all of these sensors are used during warmup cycle, so sounds more likely that something is interfering with injector cycling... Did you double check the ECU wiring connectors? Any dirt in there? |
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CORNERS
PSMINI Expert Advisor PSMINI Member Joined: July/29/10 Location: Bothell, WA Status: Offline Points: 3733 |
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Also, did you check all fuses (both under the bonnet and next to the driver footwell)? You didn't say whether you did that.
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SFarbo
PSMINI Member PSMINI Member Joined: September/06/14 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 17 |
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I checked a couple fuses, but not all. I'll be doing that for sure.
I just picked up a noid light set from O'Reilly's. (They didn't have it in yesterday.) I'll try to get to testing tonight. Thanks again for all the helpful feedback! |
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'02 R53 - DDMWorks CAI, Sprint Booster, Megan Racing Short Shifter, WMW 15% Pulley, TSW Upper Motor Mount, Madness 22mm Rear Sway Bar, CB radio w/ 4' hatch mounted antenna for that sweet RC car look.
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CORNERS
PSMINI Expert Advisor PSMINI Member Joined: July/29/10 Location: Bothell, WA Status: Offline Points: 3733 |
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Other possibility might be immobilizer somehow lost its code pair with the key, but I'd suspect that would prevent the starter motor from turning as well. If you have two keys, try the other one...
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valvashon
PSMINI Admin Joined: June/15/07 Location: West Seattle Status: Offline Points: 1170 |
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If the car has lost the pairing with the immobilizer chip, it would be the same as taking the chip out, right? In that case, the starter motor will spin but the car won't start. I'm going from memory here, I will take the immobilizer out of one of our keys and confirm tomorrow.
Bruce |
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...Now mom may drive to the grocery store, But that's not what this car is really for...
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SFarbo
PSMINI Member PSMINI Member Joined: September/06/14 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 17 |
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I used the noid lights (which were definitely just small bulbs with different pins in a plastic housing) to discover that I am getting injection pulse.
Additionally, I checked every dang fuse with a multimeter. Under the bonnet and inside the car. Even the crazy big ones under the fuse box that I only just found out about. (Though I tested those suckers in place.) Only thing I didn't test was the relays because I'm not sure how. So that's spark, fuel pressure, and injection. Pretty much the only things left would be timing, compression, and air, right? Except maybe the immobilizer? I have 2 keys and have been trying to start the car with both. Not sure how it could have gotten unpaired though. What does it disable when it does though? Because it seems like it should work. Looks like I'll be doing another full tear-down this weekend of everything I've done so far. Could I bribe anyone with some beer or beverage of choice to be a second pair of eyes/hands? I'll make some jewelry out of bullet casings or 3D print something for you or something. (Those are things that I actually do.) I'm really not relishing the thought of doing this all over alone again. |
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'02 R53 - DDMWorks CAI, Sprint Booster, Megan Racing Short Shifter, WMW 15% Pulley, TSW Upper Motor Mount, Madness 22mm Rear Sway Bar, CB radio w/ 4' hatch mounted antenna for that sweet RC car look.
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brat s
PSMINI Member PSMINI Member Joined: June/18/14 Location: North Seattle Status: Offline Points: 51 |
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I can stop by Saturday for a bit. I live in the maple leaf area which is down the street from you.
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CORNERS
PSMINI Expert Advisor PSMINI Member Joined: July/29/10 Location: Bothell, WA Status: Offline Points: 3733 |
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I can stop by MAYBE Saturday morning or maybe Sunday afternoon, pending wife approval. I have a loaner aftermarket ECU we could try putting in the car and see if it will start that way, and I also have a computer with some BMW diagnostic software loaded (that I don't know how to use to troubleshoot this particular issue but who knows). Those might help.
On Saturday, latest I could stay is noon. Sunday, not until 3 or 4pm. I have plenty of time Monday though. (Currently jobless)
Please PM me with your contact info (email, phone, address, etc.) if any of those times work. Also, do you have an air compressor or a fiber scope to look into the cylinders? Are they maybe completely flooded? |
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CORNERS
PSMINI Expert Advisor PSMINI Member Joined: July/29/10 Location: Bothell, WA Status: Offline Points: 3733 |
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That may be true but if the immobilizer wasn't working, I wouldn't expect there to be any spark or fuel injector pulse. And if the ECU is sending spark and fuel injector pulse, that means it knows where the pistons and cam are. So the car has spark, fuel, timing. Only other possibility is throttle body is not opening and car is not getting air. (or is that what the immobilizer immobilizes?) This is a mystery.
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Rob N
PSMINI Expert Advisor PSMINI Member Joined: August/13/04 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2020 |
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Doesn't it start using air from the throttle bypas valve? Is it open?
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Rob, Vickie and Alice
COOPR-S The question is, "When you turn on your car does it return the favor?" |
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CORNERS
PSMINI Expert Advisor PSMINI Member Joined: July/29/10 Location: Bothell, WA Status: Offline Points: 3733 |
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Throttle bypass valve opens only when there is a vacuum and is mechanically actuated only with no ECU control. It might contribute to start but most likely ECU opens the throttle plate and injects fuel according to the cold start fuel and ignition maps programmed into the ECU. Too much or too little air would make it not start, but generally you should hear it at least stumble and 'try' to start.
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SFarbo
PSMINI Member PSMINI Member Joined: September/06/14 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 17 |
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Thanks Guys. PMs sent. Corners, that stuff sounds like it would probably be super helpful. Saturday morning or Sunday afternoon both work for me.
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'02 R53 - DDMWorks CAI, Sprint Booster, Megan Racing Short Shifter, WMW 15% Pulley, TSW Upper Motor Mount, Madness 22mm Rear Sway Bar, CB radio w/ 4' hatch mounted antenna for that sweet RC car look.
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SFarbo
PSMINI Member PSMINI Member Joined: September/06/14 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 17 |
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Welp, I'm torn between elation and embarrassment. When brat s got here and I tried to start the car to show him what it was doing, it started right up. I have no idea what changed. I hadn't changed anything since my last try other than topping up the battery a little, but I've done that several times already (what with all the unsuccessful cranking).
Regardless, let the reassembly begin! |
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'02 R53 - DDMWorks CAI, Sprint Booster, Megan Racing Short Shifter, WMW 15% Pulley, TSW Upper Motor Mount, Madness 22mm Rear Sway Bar, CB radio w/ 4' hatch mounted antenna for that sweet RC car look.
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CORNERS
PSMINI Expert Advisor PSMINI Member Joined: July/29/10 Location: Bothell, WA Status: Offline Points: 3733 |
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Interesting and very glad to hear. My only guess is that it was completely flooded from failed start attempts. Letting it sit might have allowed the plugs to dry out??
Motor on. |
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SFarbo
PSMINI Member PSMINI Member Joined: September/06/14 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 17 |
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Yeah. I dunno. I'd considered the possibility of flooding and left the engine for a couple days with no spark plugs.
Anyway, it started. I got the car all back together, but now it sounds horrible. Like worse than before. Part of it is probably bad seals on the intercooler. (I put Alta silicone boots on, but practically destroyed them in the process. Last Alta product I'll ever buy.) That might be part of the super loud whine. But it doesn't explain the awful broken-glass-in-a-can sound coming from near the top of the engine. Here's some videos of what I'm talking about: (Sorry for vertical video) http://youtu.be/-aImxsOwbcE http://youtu.be/HAeK0A0nCtU Any idea what that racket is? |
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'02 R53 - DDMWorks CAI, Sprint Booster, Megan Racing Short Shifter, WMW 15% Pulley, TSW Upper Motor Mount, Madness 22mm Rear Sway Bar, CB radio w/ 4' hatch mounted antenna for that sweet RC car look.
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CORNERS
PSMINI Expert Advisor PSMINI Member Joined: July/29/10 Location: Bothell, WA Status: Offline Points: 3733 |
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Put back on the OEM boots. That sounds like vacuum/boost leak. It amplifies the sound of the supercharger and valve noise when there is a leak. You may also have difficulty holding a low idle speed as the engine is unable to finely control airflow to the engine.
With modern engines, a boost/vacuum leak really messes with the air/fuel calculations and prevents the engine control unit from delivering the correct amount of fuel to the engine. This can not only cause efficiency, emissions and driveability problems, but in the worse case it can lead to engine damage as well. Edited by CORNERS - September/14/14 at 8:15pm |
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SFarbo
PSMINI Member PSMINI Member Joined: September/06/14 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 17 |
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Okay, I swapped back to OEM IC boots. No change. As you can probably guess from my posting frequency, I have trouble getting to work on the car during the week. At this point, I'm pretty much done trying to work on it myself.
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'02 R53 - DDMWorks CAI, Sprint Booster, Megan Racing Short Shifter, WMW 15% Pulley, TSW Upper Motor Mount, Madness 22mm Rear Sway Bar, CB radio w/ 4' hatch mounted antenna for that sweet RC car look.
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CORNERS
PSMINI Expert Advisor PSMINI Member Joined: July/29/10 Location: Bothell, WA Status: Offline Points: 3733 |
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If you bring it over and I can diagnose it... Bothell. PM me.
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